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Official Alternative Models

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Is there any way of listing official alternative models?

 

Some sets have some fairly small alternative models, or even a number of main models.  It would be nice to see if I could build those - for instance you might be able to build some of the models from Bricks & More Safari, the alternative models from that set (which are listed on legos website), an alternative creator model, or something like the toucan from the Creator Forest Animals set even if you didn't have all the bricks in the set.  Or even some of the ideas which are printing on some lego boxes.  I suspect this is something that would be more of interest to people building with kids rather than adults who are going to be into more complex models.

 

P.S. Not sure if this should be here on in help or suggestions but it seems similar in concept to the discussions about the ideabooks.

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You can submit subsets of offical set with their own inventroy. So the site already support this, it's just a matter of doing the work. I am; with help of thea currently doing this  for the offical ideabooks. it however is going quite slow because of the lack of daylight (time to take good photos), mostly because it's winter time, no snow and full cloud cover and has been like this for weeks.

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This is the first step in the process.

Are there step by step instructions for the pictured models included in an ideabook for the sets?  

If yes, they qualify as alternate/subsets and all that's needed for submitting is an inventory and picture of the finished model.

If you are building from a single picture in the set ideabook, then it's classified as an MOC associated with the set.  Building instructions, inventory, and picture of the finished model all have to be submitted.  

 

It's quite a bit of work for the simple designs that are pretty intuitive like the giraffe in the Safari set.  Definitely worthwhile for the more complicated monkey. 

Funny coincidence...just last night(before I read your post), I was at Wal-Mart and picked up the Forest Animals to look at the toucan.  I didn't buy the set because I probably have most of the parts already.

 

I would be very happy :wub:  if you were to submit the toucan as an alternate!  :)  

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If you are building from a single picture in the set ideabook, then it's classified as an MOC associated with the set.  Building instructions, inventory, and picture of the finished model all have to be submitted.  

if it's only One picture it's equal to one instruction step. if all parts are fully visible in that picture and there simply aren't anyway to put it together wrong with the current inventory. it's a subset. 

 

if it however has one or more hidden parts, or it's hard to see where the brick edges are, or if you can easily build it incorrect by having to many brick options in a larger inventory it should be a MOC.

 

This applies to the whole picture, if a picture has both ie one model that has hidden parts and one that doesn't, the complete set is a MOC, In this case the rule one picture equal one instruction step no longer applies.

 

When it comes to simple brick animals they usually only require one good picture to build from, it's like the christmas calendar a few pieces together with a picture is enough. instruction is overkill. You can of course simply link one picture as a instruction to a MOC. if that is enough to full fill the need of a instruction.

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Thanks everyone.

 

I would be very happy :wub:  if you were to submit the toucan as an alternate!  :)  

 

I don't have that set at the moment, but the instructions are on http://service.lego.com/en-gb/buildinginstructions already so should just be a case of going through the 13 pages that apply to the toucan and compiling a list of pieces from that.  I might have a go at that.

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I tried submitting the one of the simplest alternative models from Bricks & More Safari to try this out (since I've never submitted anything and only discovered rebrickable a few weeks ago).  The set it submitted is the wildebeest type animal in this picture: http://lego.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Bricks_and_More?file=4637_alt3.jpg

 

It's currently pending approval but I must have done something wrong when adding the image.  I assumed it'd be considered fair use to use the official images for alt models (since all the images on official sets look like the official images) and put the url above into the image field, but that didn't work for some reason.

 

http://rebrickable.com/sets/4637-1-b1

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The URL you used was for the page, not the actual image. I've fixed it and approved the submission.

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I've submitted the alternative Jeep from Bricks & More Safari:

 

http://rebrickable.com/sets_p/4637-1-b2

 

Is it useful to post them here once I've added them or were you just doing that for the ideas books where more than one person was working on the same thing?  I doubt anyone else is doing these, though if anyone wants to then feel free.  I'm unlikely to make much progress as I try not to spend too much of my free time using computers.

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Well I am using it more like a log of progress, so people can see which sets that has been done and get a overview. It also for the ability for others to join in and help, catch up or follow what's being done. It's really not that much work involved in most sets, making instruction takes time however. so 8888-1 is progressing slow because of that reason and two others. (winter time and conflict with master inventory between 250-1 and 8888-1 both wanting the few parts I have of one type), So I am currently rushing 250-1 to be done so the master inventory can be resolved. Should be a few weeks and they should all be done. 

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It's nof fully clear yet, as i have a similar/same question but cannot make up the rules that must be obeyed.

1) providing instructions (you created yourself) for an official set which lego provided full instructions is allowed or not?

   .. i guess not, but being able to find these sets browsing mocs would be very handy

2) providing alternative builds for a set, for which lego provided a picture on the box/manual, but no detailed instructions, seems to be fine as i can find such mocs

   .. corect?  but what if someone did the same, but the moc is not listed on rebrickable.com but on another website...?  would that ge copyright violation as this can occur as i will not be the only one trying to provide instructions for these models

3)  A variant of question 1) if the answer one 1) would be "not allowed"

      .. . what if you makeinstructions for an official set, but just change 1 brick/layout? This would make instructions available, but with just a minor detail change

 

The main purpose of this question is that i collected my old sets/ idea books from my parents home, and want to have all the instructions on rebrickable ( findable when browsing mocs) for the official sets, and what appears as example on the box/manual

 

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50 minutes ago, mboehlen said:

It's nof fully clear yet, as i have a similar/same question but cannot make up the rules that must be obeyed.

1) providing instructions (you created yourself) for an official set which lego provided full instructions is allowed or not?

   .. i guess not, but being able to find these sets browsing mocs would be very handy

2) providing alternative builds for a set, for which lego provided a picture on the box/manual, but no detailed instructions, seems to be fine as i can find such mocs

   .. corect?  but what if someone did the same, but the moc is not listed on rebrickable.com but on another website...?  would that ge copyright violation as this can occur as i will not be the only one trying to provide instructions for these models

3)  A variant of question 1) if the answer one 1) would be "not allowed"

      .. . what if you makeinstructions for an official set, but just change 1 brick/layout? This would make instructions available, but with just a minor detail change

 

The main purpose of this question is that i collected my old sets/ idea books from my parents home, and want to have all the instructions on rebrickable ( findable when browsing mocs) for the official sets, and what appears as example on the box/manual

 

  1)  Not allowed.

2)  @Nathan  I'll have to check with Nathan about this one.

3)  Not allowed.

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22 minutes ago, biodreamer said:

1)  Unless it's because you just removed the instructions yourself,  the first 3 links go to a 404 page not found.

2)  Yes, that's why I've sent a question to Nathan.

 

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Just seeking clarification about instructions for a MOC based on an official lego set.

I am working on some instructions for a modified base for the 42042 crawler crane. Since my variations do not come into effect until page 20 of the official instructions, do I have to include the first 19 pages of instructions? I am using Stud.io as lego digital designer does not work on my laptop.

Thanks

ps making instructions is a slow process

 

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7 hours ago, thea said:

1)  Unless it's because you just removed the instructions yourself,  the first 3 links go to a 404 page not found.

2)  Yes, that's why I've sent a question to Nathan.

 

I have not removed those instructions, they where added very long time ago, I haven't touched them. might has been broken in a update, the instruction has been submitted to the site and not touched afterwards. These was among my first contributions when I joined rebrickables many years ago. Neither have I got a mail saying they have been forbidden and withdrawn.

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Infact all my old instructions pdf doesn't seem to have been moved over from rebrickable v2 even those who wasn't sets.

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Hello,

 

if i understand correctly these alternative builds @Nathan needsto confirm?

https://rebrickable.com/sets/6681-1/police-van/#alt_builds

https://rebrickable.com/sets/6691-1/red-cross-helicopter/#alt_builds

As they seem to be made based on models (without instructions) printed on the manuals

http://peeron.com/scans/6681-1/2

http://peeron.com/scans/6691-1/8

 

.... that would be really pitty as you then need to find the old manuals to get a picture of the possible alternative build 

 

Edited by mboehlen

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On 4/2/2018 at 9:48 PM, mboehlen said:

The main purpose of this question is that i collected my old sets/ idea books from my parents home, and want to have all the instructions on rebrickable ( findable when browsing mocs) for the official sets, and what appears as example on the box/manual

MOCs need their own instructions, but for official LEGO sets (and B-models/sub-models/LEGO-Idea-rebuilds) the site automatically includes links to Brick Instructions and Brickset. Obviously, for B-models and LIBs, these links might not work. But you can always add a comment to a B-model or LIB and add a link to some box-scan or instruction pdf. That would probably solve your problem.

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Currently, we have defined LIBs as "rebuilds of models included in LEGO Idea Books, or alternate models shown at the back of box, for which LEGO never released official build instructions." (Help > Set Types)
These models are considered to be official sets, and they are numbered as 8258-1-c1, 8258-1-c2, etc (8258 used as example set number).

Obviously, submitting a LIB as a MOC and claiming you have designed it yourself is wrong, but there can be good reasons to submit a LIB as a MOC.

For vintage sets you can replace old parts with modern parts, and then you can't submit the model as a LIB (as the modern parts are not in the inventory of the vintage set), and so you have to submit it as a MOC. When this is explained in the description, as Biodreamer did, I don't see any problem.

Also, for LIBs based on old box images, if the model is somewhat complicated, it really helps to have an additional instruction, and, if someone takes the trouble to create that instruction, it is no problem to submit that LIB as a MOC.

Generally, I think this is about community value: if you create an inventory for a model and share it with others using Rebrickable, you are creating something of value. The same is true for instructions when you create those yourself. As long as you are honest about your sources, the choice between submitting a model as a LIB or a MOC is yours: if you only have the parts inventory, submit it as a LIB, if you fancy creating the instructions, submit it as a MOC. Just be clear about where you got your inspiration.

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Michael; to be sure...

If you buy a box of LEGO bricks, those bricks are legally your property. If you build a model with those bricks, that model is legally your property. If you take a picture of that model, that picture is legally your property, and you own the copyright (you determine what you do with it). If you create building instructions for your model, those instructions are legally your property, and you own the copyright.

It doesn't matter how you designed your model: it could be completely your own design, it could be you followed some kind of instruction of someone else, and even if you followed official LEGO instructions; the model you build is yours, and you always have the right to make photographs or building instructions of that model.

So, legally, it is allowed to create your own instructions of an official LEGO set, for which LEGO has already created instructions. It would be a little silly, and probably a lot of work, but it would not be illegal. Provided of course that you do not use any copyrighted material, from LEGO or otherwise, to create your instructions.

However, if you want to submit a MOC to be able to upload and access the instructions your created yourself (again, from an existing LEGO set), then we would refuse that MOC, *not* because the instructions are illegal, which they are not, but because we already have that set and its inventory in our set catalog, and it would be silly to duplicate that set as a MOC.

Hope this clarifies Thea's initial response.

Take care,
Simon

Edited by Simon
typos

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On 4/3/2018 at 3:29 AM, Brickfan said:

Since my variations do not come into effect until page 20 of the official instructions, do I have to include the first 19 pages of instructions?

Hi Brickfan;

You can either add a textual reference to the official LEGO instructions ("Follow the first 19 pages of the official instructions, then do...") or re-create those first 19 pages yourself in stud.io. You should *not* copy the first 19 pages of the official instructions and then add pages you created yourself.

In their Fair Play Legal Notice, the LEGO Group states the following concerning building instructions, publications and photographs used in catalogs and on packages: "Copying, scanning and distributing these materials on the Internet would be an infringement of our copyrights. Nevertheless, at the present time the LEGO Group does not object to scanning of limited extracts of these materials in unaltered form for non-commercial purposes of exchange of information or good faith commentary."

Note the *unaltered form*! LEGO allows us to scan building instructions and share them on the internet, but we are not allowed to alter them. So you can't use half of an original LEGO instruction booklet.

Hope this answers your question,
Take care,
Simon

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THanks for this Simon. I think it would just be simpler and quicker to say "follow the instructions to page 19, then do...." but I will still have to put all the parts into stud.io anyway in order to put the extra bits in, which still takes a lot of time. I have discovered that you can use a particular set's palette of pieces in stud.io so that dramatically reduces the number of pieces and colours that you need to look through in order to build. That is saving time, but it is still taking longer than I expected. Are there any pieces of software that will create building instructions for you from a design like Lego digital designer did? that I think would be quicker.

Thanks also for the clarity about the instructions booklet, ie in effect you have include the whole thing, not just part, hence your/my first comment  "follow the instructions to page 19, then do...." 

Brian

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Hi, Brian;

I don't know much about creating instructions, but you could try exporting your stud.io model as an LDraw file, and then importing it back into LDD, and use that to generate piece-by-piece html instructions. Depends a little on the parts you use, stud.io has many more older parts, not available in LDD (if you hack into stud.io, you can actually enable all the available LDraw parts, official and non-official), but most modern parts are available in both, and it only takes a couple of seconds to try it.

The only other method I have seen for creating instructions in stud.io is, as you probably know, organizing the build in hidden steps, un-hiding them one by one, while temporarily changing the color of all parts in a step to an otherwise unused color, and then create a rendering for that particular step. The result is better then LDD in term of use, but with high-quality renders, it will take a lot of time.

(I usually render while watching Netflix... LOL)

Take care,
Simon

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