adrien79

Old type windows (part 27, 29, 31, etc.)

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Currently the situation at Rebrickable is a bit messy for older windows (pre-minifig). This applies to parts 27, 29, 31, 453, 645, 646, 3081, 3087.

As far as I can see, there were at least three mold variants for each size:

  • Variant A has an extended sill and solid studs. It seems to date from the mid-1950s, and was offered in accessory sets either with a fixed glass or with no glass (sets 1230-2 and 1231-2).
  • Variant B has an extended sill and hollow studs. It was made in the 1960s. It seems that most sizes have a removable glass (but not 1 x 1 x 1).
  • Variant C has a short sill, hollow studs and a fixed glass. It was made from the early 1970s onwards. Some (smaller) sizes were offered without glass in a few sets.
  • Some sizes have a fourth variant (D) for slotted bricks, with no studs at the top, that is certainly very early.

There are many conflicting names applied to all these parts, and I suggest to adopt a common naming pattern, e.g. "Window classic [with solid studs OR with long sill OR with short sill] [no glass OR complete]".

I also suggest that all parts have the same numbering scheme. The most consistent scheme is that used for size 1 x 1 x 1, with variants 3087a, 3087ac01, 3087b, 3087bc01, 3087c, 3087cc01. Other sizes are less consistent, for example size 1 x 6 x 2 has number 645 for variant C without glass (does it even exist in this size?),  645c for variant D (for slotted bricks) and 645cc01 for variant C with glass.

Finally I suggest that all parts of the same size are treated as alternate of each other, and all parts with glass are treated as mold variants (same without glass). This is currently the case for most sizes but not all.

I started to file individual change requests, but now I think that a more systematic action is needed by a moderator.

 

 

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Hi, Adrien,

You got me interested! -smile-

I completely agree that there is a lot wrong with older parts (pre 1970), and there is a lot of room for improvement. I also agree on the need for a more consistent naming system for these parts, and, at least, a good image that shows the differences between all the variants, and some additional description wouldn't hurt either.

As to renumbering these parts, in general, I don't think that is a good idea. At first glace, all these parts seem to be based upon the original Peeron/LDraw part numbers, which means that these numbers have been in use for at least 25 years, and changing them just for the sake of consistency is, as far as I am concerned, out of the question. Many, many people have these parts in their part lists, or own sets that contain these parts, and they all use these numbers, and would get very frustrated if we start changing them.

Give me 24 hours to look into this, and then I wil get back to you.

Take care,
Simon

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Hi Simon,

I've investigated a bit further, and it looks like our current numbering system is a mix of the Peeron scheme and Bricklink numbers.

The Peeron system is as follows:

  • suffix "a" / "b" / "c" for variants A / B / C
  • suffix "c01" with glass
  • the variant for slotted bricks is not listed

The Bricklink system:

  •  no suffix for the later variant (C)
  • suffix "a" / "b" for variants A / B
  • suffix "c01" with glass, except for the larger sizes of variant C that existed with fixed glass only (e.g. in size 1 x 2 x 1 you have 27 / 27c01, but in size 1 x 4 x 2 you have 453 alone)
  • suffix "c" for slotted bricks (perhaps a late addition)

The two systems are consistent but incompatible. Currently at Rebrickable we have a mix of both, for example we have parts 645 / 645c / 645cc01, which is unfortunate.

The Bricklink system is maybe a little better because a plain number is used for the most common variant, and because it does not create a number for non-existent parts (variant C without glass in larger size).

All the best,

Adrien

P.S.: in the above list of parts, I forgot 604 (size 1 x 6 x 3).

image.png

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Adrien, I'd like to do this part by part, if you don't mind, and by keeping all our remarks in this thread, we can ensure consistency in part names and such, okey?

Let's start with the humble 3087. This is what we currently have:

3087     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic, No Glass [Undetermined Type]
3087a     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill and Solid Stud, No Glass
3087ac01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Solid Stud [Complete]
3087b     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill, No Glass
3087bc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill [Complete]
3087c     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill, No Glass
3087c01     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic [Complete] [Undetermined Type]
3087cc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill [Complete]

Both Undetermined Types are disabled, so you can't see them, but we do need them for import translation.


The History:

Between 1949 and 1955 LEGO produced three windows and a door with wings that fit into slotted bricks. In early 1954 the tall classic windows/doors with wings were introduced, while by the end of 1954 we got the
regular classic window/door sizes, but still with wings and without glass. Smallest size, however, was the 1x2x2.

The first 1x1x1 window was introduced in 1956, with a solid stud, long sill or ledge, made from Cellulose Acetate, and sold without glass (Denmark only - 3087a) and with glass (elsewhere - 3087ac01). Between 1958 and 1970 it had a hollow stud, long sill or ledge, and was only sold with glass (3087bc01). However, the glass could fall out of the part, so parts without glass do exist, but were never used in regular sets (3087b).

In 1963 LEGO switched from Cellulose Acetate to ABS, but the part remained the same. In 1970 the long sill or ledge was replaced by a short sill or ledge, and still only sold with glass (3087cc01). In 1975 the glass was removed (3087c) and this version remained in production until 1987.

1956    3087ac01    Long Sill or Ledge, Cellulose Acetate, Solid Stud, Glass
1956    3087a        Long Sill or Ledge, Cellulose Acetate, Solid Stud, No Glass (Denmark only)
1958    3087bc01    Long Sill or Ledge, Cellulose Acetate, Hollow Stud, Glass
1958    3087b        Long Sill or Ledge, Cellulose Acetate, Hollow Stud, No Glass (not in regular sets)
1963    3087bc01    Long Sill or Ledge, ABS, Hollow Stud, Glass
1963    3087bc01    Long Sill or Ledge, ABS, Hollow Stud, No Glass (not in regular sets)
1970    3087cc01    Short Sill or Ledge, ABS, Hollow Stud, Glass
1975    3087c        Short Sill or Ledge, ABS, Hollow Stud, No Glass
1987    end of production

(this is what I could dig up, if I am right I propose to add this info to the part notes of all 3087 parts, with part numbers linking to each other)


Part Names

I think we should not use [Complete] (sold without glass is still complete) but use with Glass and without Glass consistantly:

3087     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic without Glass [Undetermined Type]
3087a     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill, Solid Stud without Glass
3087ac01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill, Solid Stud with Glass
3087b     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill without Glass
3087bc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill with Glass
3087c     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill without Glass
3087c01     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Glass [Undetermined Type]
3087cc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill with Glass


Part Relationships

I agree with Adrien that all these parts are alternates, and we have five mold groups:

3087ac01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill, Solid Stud with Glass
3087bc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill with Glass
3087cc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill with Glass
are molds of
3087     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic without Glass [Undetermined Type]

3087a     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill, Solid Stud without Glass
3087b     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill without Glass
3087c     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill without Glass
are molds of
3087c01     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Glass [Undetermined Type]

3087ac01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill, Solid Stud with Glass
is mold of
3087a     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill, Solid Stud without Glass

3087bc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill with Glass
is mold of
3087b     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill without Glass

3087cc01 Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill with Glass
is mold of
3087c     Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill without Glass

 

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Simon, thank you for all this information, I agree with your conclusions.

But in my opinion, 3087b is a broken part, and I'm not sure it should be included in the database. I'm not sure that "undetermined type" items are necessary, I think they confuse things a bit further.

For build calculations, I would rather expect to group all the variants with glass together as mold variations, and to consider variants without glass as alternates, because the absence of glass is a functionally important difference for some applications.

All the best,

Adrien

 

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@adrien79Adrien;

I know it has been four month, but I am still trying to make this better, and I would love to hear your (and anyone else's) opinion about the following.

I agree that the [Undetermined Type] bricks are a problem. Regular users can NOT see them, only admins can, and in this case, their only use seems to be to prevent users from submitting those part numbers. But in my opinion, we should at least have a part with a plain number (as you remarked earlier BL has this), and it should be used for the most common variant.

Now, for a 1 x 1 x 1 window, the most common variant is 3087c, Short Sill, ABS, Hollow Stud, No Glass, the most modern version used from 1975 to 1987.

So I am proposing to delete the two [Undetermined Type] parts (3087 and 3087c01), and renumber 3087c to 3087. The other molds/alternates keep their original part number. Then we create a comparison image, that shows the differences between the molds, and we add that to each mold. In the part description of 3087 I will add an overview of the mold history and the comparison image.

I will also add 3087g - Glass for Windows 1 x 1 x 1 Classic. All the variants with glass are molds, and they have two sub-parts, 3087g and the variant without glass.

Finally, I want to add 3087ca01 (the Cellulose Acetate version of 3087bc01) and 3087ca (the Cellulose Acetate version of 3087b). These were produced from 1958 to 1962, and they visibly different from the ABS versions introduced in 1963 (the reds are a little darker, and the logo is different).

So we'd have two Cellulose Acetate molds (Long Sill and Solid Stud / Long Sill and Hollow Stud) and two ABS molds (Long Sill and Hollow Stud / Short Sill and Hollow Stud), and for each a sub-part without glass.

3087a        Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill and Solid Stud, No Glass (CA)
3087ac01    Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill and Solid Stud, with Glass (CA)
3087b        Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill and Hollow Stud, No Glass
3087bc01    Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill and Hollow Stud, with Glass
3087ca        Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill and Hollow Stud, No Glass (CA)
3087ca01    Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Long Sill and Hollow Stud, with Glass (CA)
3087        Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill and Hollow Stud, No Glass
3087cc01    Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic with Short Sill and Hollow Stud, with Glass
3087g        Glass for Windows 1 x 1 x 1 Classic

3087ac01 = 3087a + 3087g
3087bc01 = 3087b + 3087g
3087ca01 = 3087ca + 3087g
3087cc01 = 3087 + 3087g

I think a system like this would also work for all other classic windows/doors. Looking forward to all comments...

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5 hours ago, Simon said:

3087g        Glass for Windows 1 x 1 x 1 Classic

My only concern would be numbering glass the same as the 'frames'. a,b,c designation determines the different molds of a part, the glass is not a different mold. I think it confuses the a,b,c system.

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Yes, that is a valid concern. Just checked BL, they use 39a/b/c and 39glass as part numbers. Would 3087glass be a better choice? Makes it totally clear it is not another mold.

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1 hour ago, Simon said:

Yes, that is a valid concern. Just checked BL, they use 39a/b/c and 39glass as part numbers. Would 3087glass be a better choice? Makes it totally clear it is not another mold.

I don't have the parts, so not sure if this is a valid comment. But usually a frame+glass combo becomes an assembly, so 3087c01(a,b,c,etc)?

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why not use 3088 ( I think it's free) the glass is a different mold, it was just glued onto part 3087 instead of combined, ie so you can't take it apart more than once like most super parts. it's similar to stickers just applied by Lego. and if you happen to break the part you could still use the sub-part in your inventory.

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1 hour ago, biodreamer said:

why not use 3088 ( I think it's free)

I'm hesitant to use 'normal' numbers at random. That makes it look like it's the official LEGO number. I prefer a clearly madeup number, like a prefix or suffix.

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9 hours ago, TobyMac said:

But usually a frame+glass combo becomes an assembly, so 3087c01(a,b,c,etc)?

I am not sure I understand what you mean? Are assemblies numbered [part-nr]c01?

8 hours ago, biodreamer said:

why not use 3088 ( I think it's free)

I agree with Toby - design ids (and element ids) are issued by LEGO, and users should be able to trust us that we don't make them up ourselves.

8 hours ago, biodreamer said:

so you can't take it apart more than once like most super parts

I do agree that these classic doors and windows are technically NOT assemblies like most super parts. The glass was mostly glued or heat-welded and once separated, they can't be easily re-assembled. However, as far as I can tell, these part were designed to be real assemblies. The glass had small knobs, and all parts (except the 1x1x1) had a small hole on the top where the glass could snap in. The problem was, it didn't work. Cellulose Acetate deforms with temperature changes, and then the glass fell out. It is still unsure if LEGO actually sold windows without glue, and started gluing later, or that they found out during production and solved the problem immediately. Even when they switched to ABS in 1963, the holes remained, even though the glass was heat-welded additionally. Only by 1970, they gave up and the holes disappeared. However, for all modern windows they have returned to the old snap-in method.

So in principle these doors and windows were meant to be real assemblies, and only due to the lack of LEGO's experience and accuracy of production methods, they couldn't get it to work, and glued or heat-welded the glass. That, in my opinion, warrants the use of sub-parts in our system.

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1 hour ago, Simon said:

I am not sure I understand what you mean? Are assemblies numbered [part-nr]c01?

Yes. Like torsos 973c00 (torso, arms, hands), hips and legs 970c00, etc

They normaly start with 01, but both 973 and 970 have a null-version.

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OK, so if I add a CA/no glass version 3087ca, then the assembly (with glass) should be 3087cac01? (if we value consistency -smile-)

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Just now, Simon said:

OK, so if I add a CA/no glass version 3087ca, then the assembly (with glass) should be 3087cac01? (if we value consistency -smile-)

Correct

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10 hours ago, TobyMac said:

I'm hesitant to use 'normal' numbers at random. That makes it look like it's the official LEGO number. I prefer a clearly madeup number, like a prefix or suffix.

That is how all the old parts are, they are all made up. Lego didn't have any numbers on them. For some reason the guys started inventory the Home maker sets first...

so these number 27,29 and 31 that this topic is about is all made up numbers by a Lego fan that have stuck around.

So all parts that has been out of rotation since they started mold numbering, which is basically half of LEGO history. doesn't really have a number, and the old windows frames didn't have any either. and if you look at lego mold numbering glass is usually next to the frame number.

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1 hour ago, Simon said:

OK, so if I add a CA/no glass version 3087ca, then the assembly (with glass) should be 3087cac01? (if we value consistency -smile-)

Please don't add another letter for CA, can't you not just use CAPITAL letter for the mold if in CA or something?

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4 hours ago, biodreamer said:

That is how all the old parts are, they are all made up. Lego didn't have any numbers on them. For some reason the guys started inventory the Home maker sets first...

I wrote a long post about this, that Peeron used x9[9] when they didn't know the design number, and that Home Maker sets didn't even contain classic doors and windows, and right before posting, I decided to check my facts and I wrote a little python script that searches the part database and lists all parts with a single digit part number. Here's the results:

1   Homemaker Bookcase 2 x 4 x 4
2   Homemaker Cupboard 4 x 4 x 4
3   Homemaker Drawer 4 x 4 x 2
5   Fabuland Fire Ladder Holder 2 x 4 x 2 1/2
8   Plate Special 2 x 2 with Wheel Holder Bottom
30903 parts read from ../data/rb/parts.csv - 2018-10-25 21:18:10.487387
Ready!

Man, I feel stupid! You are so right... -smile-

I am not yet ready to invent my own design numbers, but I must admit that part numbers 27, 31, 32 and 33 are completely random numbers, and the only reason to keep them as they are is that people might be used to them. But, with these old parts, I do wonder how many people actually have them and really want to keep those numbers.

In any case, I need to check if and how much these parts have been used in RB. I will get back to this on Friday.

Take care,
Simon

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Bio, you rock man!

Here's what I did - I created a list of all old design ids, starting with 3000 and ending with 3099. Then I added all the known parts. Mostly, you see sequences of known parts, going from large to small. Now, there are several gaps in there, unused design numbers, so to speak, but take a look at the gap between 3070 and 3088.
Classic Windows fit like a glove! The doors could have been 3089 to 3092.

Now I need to add the year of introduction to this list, and see if it still works, and I am not suggesting to immediately renumber our parts, but I think it is interesting enough to post it.

3001    Brick 2 x 4
3002    Brick 2 x 3
3003    Brick 2 x 2
3004    Brick 1 x 2
3005    Brick 1 x 1
3006    Brick 2 x 10
3007    Brick 2 x 8
3008    Brick 1 x 8
3009    Brick 1 x 6
3010    Brick 1 x 4
3011    Duplo Brick 2 x 4
3012
3013
3014
3015
3016
3017
3018
3019
3020    Plate 2 x 4
3021    Plate 2 x 3
3022    Plate 2 x 2
3023    Plate 1 x 2
3024    Plate 1 x 1
3025
3026    Plate 6 x 24
3027    Plate 6 x 16
3028    Plate 6 x 12
3029    Plate 4 x 12
3030    Plate 4 x 10
3031    Plate 4 x 4
3032    Plate 4 x 6
3033    Plate 6 x 10
3034    Plate 2 x 8
3035    Plate 4 x 8
3036    Plate 6 x 8
3037    Slope 45° 2 x 4
3038    Slope 45° 2 x 3
3039    Slope 45° 2 x 2
3040    Slope 45° 2 x 1
3041    Slope 45° 2 x 4 Double
3042    Slope 45° 2 x 3 Double
3043    Slope 45° 2 x 2 Double
3044    Slope 45° 2 x 1 Double
3045    Slope 45° 2 x 2 Double Convex
3046    Slope 45° 2 x 2 Double Concave
3047
3048    Slope 45° 2 x 1 Triple
3049    Slope 45° 2 x 1 Double Inverted
3050
3051
3052
3053
3054
3055
3056
3057
3058    Plate Special 6 x 16 with Motor Cutout Narrow
3059
3060
3061
3062    Brick Round 1 x 1
3063    Brick Round Corner 2 x 2 Macaroni without Stud Notch
3064
3065    Brick 1 x 2 without Bottom Tube
3066    Brick 1 x 4 without Bottom Tubes
3067    Brick 1 x 6 without Bottom Tubes
3068    Tile 2 x 2 without Groove
3069    Tile 1 x 2 without Groove
3070    Tile 1 x 1 without Groove
3071        ??? Windows 1 x 6 x 3 Classic Panorama
3072        ??? Windows 1 x 6 x 3 Classic Panorama Glass
3073        ??? Windows 1 x 6 x 2 Classic Shuttered
3074        ??? Windows 1 x 6 x 2 Classic Shuttered Glass
3075        ??? Windows 1 x 6 x 2 Classic
3076        ??? Windows 1 x 6 x 2 Classic Glass
3077        ??? Windows 1 x 4 x 2 Classic
3078        ??? Windows 1 x 4 x 2 Classic Glass
3079        ??? Windows 1 x 3 x 2 Classic
3080        ??? Windows 1 x 3 x 2 Classic Glass
3081    Window 1 x 2 x 2 Classic
3082    Window 1 x 2 x 2 Classic Glass
3083        ??? Windows 1 x 2 x 1 Classic
3084        ??? Windows 1 x 2 x 1 Classic Glass
3085        ??? Windows 1 x 1 x 2 Classic
3086        ??? Windows 1 x 1 x 2 Classic Glass
3087    Window 1 x 1 x 1 Classic
3088        ??? Windows 1 x 1 x 1 Classic Glass
3089
3090
3091
3092
3093
3094
3095
3096
3097
3098
3099
Ready!

 

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Well both of the 1x6x2 molds are using the same glass, so no need to have two molds there.

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7 hours ago, Simon said:

am not yet ready to invent my own design numbers, but I must admit that part numbers 27, 31, 32 and 33 are completely random numbers, and the only reason to keep them as they are is that people might be used to them. But, with these old parts, I do wonder how many people actually have them and really want to keep those numbers.

I have most of them, and we need to keep them in the mapping tables, but other than that I think one to three digit parts really suck when searching, you get so much other parts that isn't relevant. And it's good if you do like you did try to find a good range where they fit together with their different size counter parts.

I mean those Homemaker parts has molds that should be added ie 2a and 2b, 3a and 3b, it's no really the numbers you want to put into the search if you quickly want to fetch a part.

(in this case is if they have 5 or 9 tubes below the cupboard) then we have the doors there is two versions of them too...

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