Simon

Rebrickable Themes

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Greetings, Folks,

after the successful completion of the Minifig Parts Category reorganization, we now want to focus our attention on another big problem, namely the size and complexity of our theme-tree.

This problem is most obvious if you try to search for a specific theme: the drop-down selection list for themes is very long (673 themes); the full theme name varies from 4 to 85 characters, with an average of 23 characters, and almost a third of the full theme names don't fit within the box width and is split over two lines; and even though the selection can be made smaller by typing a few first characters, selecting a theme mostly takes some effort.

Furthermore, in any set search results page, the full theme name that is displayed below the set name and parts count is almost always abbreviated and can only be seen in full by hovering over the link.

Finally, the theme structure is essentially based upon the following definition of a theme: "A LEGO Theme is a way to classify LEGO sets on the main subject they cover." (from Brickpedia). Initially, this definition worked perfectly: when the minifigure-scale System line was introduced in 1978, there were the three major themes; Town, Castle and Space, each having several sub themes, with distinct factions of minifigures. This led to themes like:

    Space > Classic Space
    Space > Futuron
    Space > M:Tron

which still make a lot of sense, but also to themes like:

    Town > Classic Town > Airport
    Town > Classic Town > Fire
    Town > Classic Town > Harbor

which soon afterwards became a major problem, because when the Technic line started in 1984, it also had air planes, fire trucks and ships, and so, the Technic theme was sub-divided:

    Technic > Model > Airport
    Technic > Model > Fire
    Technic > Model > Harbor

Creator, which launched in 2001, had similar models, which could either be very simple and basic, or more complicated. Hence we added Basic Models and Models:

    Creator > Basic Model > Airport
    Creator > Basic Model > Fire
    Creator > Basic Model > Harbor
    Creator > Model > Airport
    Creator > Model > Fire
    Creator > Model > Harbor

And once this system was established, all kinds of themes were expanded similarly (we want to be consistent):

    4 Juniors > Jack Stone > Fire
    4 Juniors > Town > Fire
    DUPLO > Town > Fire
    Fabuland > Fire
    Legoland > Fire
    System > Vehicle > Fire
    Town > City > Fire
    Town > Town Jr. > Fire
    Town > World City > Fire

Resulting in 13 Fire related sub-themes, some of which only contain one or two sets.

Now consider the b-model of the modern Technic set 42084, the "Airport Fire Truck". Is that Airport of Fire? We can't have both. What about set 60172 "Mountain Arrest"? The main model is a helicopter (Airport?), then there's a buggy (Traffic?), a small shed (Building?), and even a bear (Farm?). But if an arrest is made, it must be Police, right?

Finally, any child or young adult who gets interested in LEGO will have seen, or even own, one or more City sets. LEGO City is one of the most well-known LEGO themes available. And yet, there is no City right before Classic in our themes list, where one would expect it to be. That's because City is considered to be a sub-theme of Town, a theme that basically ended 22 years ago. While historically correct, functionally this is wrong. City, as a current theme, deserves to be a main theme on it own.

In our opinion, our current way of organizing has two major problems. First, it tries to create a completely consistent naming system, while LEGO is not consistent: LEGO changes theme names based on market developments. We believe our system should be functional in the first place, even when that functionality seems inconsistent.

Secondly, the very definition upon which our system is based is wrong. A theme is NOT characterized by its subject, it is characterized by a logo on the cover of the box, or a logo on the page in the catalog. Simply put, a theme is anything for which LEGO creates a new logo or a new box design.

Things like Airport, Fire and Harbor should be tags, which would allow us to group all Airport related models together, irrespectively of the theme in which LEGO released a set. Current LEGO themes for which new sets are still released should be main themes in our theme list; discontinued themes might be grouped for simplicity. And it might be nice to have an annotated theme list, so that each entry can have its own description or definition.

We are going to simplify our theme tree, but we're doing it very slowly, and step by step. This is not something we can do in a few weeks or even a few month.

Last week, we have started with the Creator theme, and we're still working on it. The Creator theme is currently organized like this:

Creator
    Basic Model
        Airport
        Building
        Cargo
        Castle
        Construction
        Creature
        Fire
        Food & Drink
        Harbor
        Race
        Robot
        Traffic
        Train
    Basic Set
    Mecha
    Model
        Airport
        Building
        Cargo
        Creature
        Fire
        Harbor
        Recreation
        Riding Cycle
        Traffic
    Supplemental

The new structure looks like this:

  Creator                All Creator sets except:
    Creator 3-in-1        Creator sets with the 3-in-1 logo (one main and two b-models)
    Creator Expert        Large Creator sets with the Expert logo
    Early Creator        Creator sets from 2001 to 2006

We are slowly moving sets out of those sub-themes into the new themes, making sure that things like Airport and Fire are kept as tags.

A first question: LEGO considers Modular Buildings to be part of the Creator Expert line; we have Modular Buildings as a separate theme. Is that more functional, or not?

Take care,
Simon

PS. A complete overview of main and sub-themes can be found in the Tips & Trick Help page, as well as a first attempt to create annotated tags.

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I think themes should be more like "settings"  and most sub-themes can be replaced by good tagging. So "Creator 3 in 1"  does not make sense as a theme it should be a tag.

You should set the theme to creator and filter on the "x in 1" Tag.

I would run this through the community once before going crazy and make the changes. Give us a draft of what you guys want but consider that themes should work nice with MOCS and not only mirror original sets. Need to go to work I will post a few of my ideas later.

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2 hours ago, biodreamer said:

and most sub-themes can be replaced by good tagging

That's basically the plan. It's kind of messy at the moment. Some sub themes are so long the name can't be displayed correctly, and some have only a few sets that can easily be put in the main theme with a tag. If you have to dig far to find a set, it beats the purpose of the sub themes.
Similar situations are for instance in the Seasonals, where the box clearly says Creator, so logically that's the first place you look. Also the Star Wars theme is a mess, with more and more sets appearing that fit into multiple episodes, while for for instance Micro Fighters there is no sub theme. These are scattered around in episode-sub themes or in Mini. Tags are the best solution for this.

But 1 theme at the time, and we'll keep users up-to-date and available for input via the Forum.

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so you guys want to first attack the "Creator" theme?

Well imo then I think you have go wider first and include the old "Basic" and the Universal Building Category. so there should be a Creator Tag so if you just want the "modern" name for it.

I see this setting more as a free builder settings where young kids builds from bricks with no scale or define settings in mind. Houses can be single walls etc.

in other end of that spectrum is the creator sets with houses which is perfect for the city category, and you will miss them if all you want is to look for buildings to build to fit in your city. except for the name "creator" on the box they are perfect city sets.

I do not think we should have categories that is based on set age. so "early creator" is imo a bad idea. unless you can put a figure out what make them different from new sets and divide them based on that. You can always limit year in a search.

so imo most sets in these three categories should be subdivided into the same type of new categories which dictate what the set is about.

I would put brick buckets and boxes in one category, (Basically any set where the A model doesn't use the majority of the parts and the set is really about free building) (Not for MOCS)

I would have another category for the basic sets which has the blocky style but that has a  A model that takes up the majority of the parts

I would have one category for sets which have models that is of a mixed scale, (not suitable for mini figs)

and then I would use the "modern city theme" for all sets built for minifigs.

Space category for all multi planetary scifi related sets 

City category for modern age sets ie post combustion engine, one planet civilization. ie any space related sets should be at today's technology level

Steam punk category for sets in the steam engine, magic crystal powered settings, 

Medieval category for all sets suitable for the dark ages. ie pre gun powder age. Vikings belong here also... but dinosaurs do not

Pirates category for sets post gun powder  to pre industrial age (ie before steam engine)

 

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I agree with @Simon's genera approach that themes should pretty much be what's written on the box or terms that have become widely used (ie Classic Space) and that things like police or fire should be themes.

I was wondering something. In this structure, you can easily filter on one of the 3 subcategory. You can also get all Creator sets by filtering on Creator itself. But is there a way to see only the sets that are specifically directly under creator while excluding the 3 subcategories? I can do it by clicking on a set directly in that category and then clicking on it's category but I don't see a way from the search screen. Also, that means I need to find at least one set in the parent category. (I tried with space.) It's nothing crucial but it's the one thing I can't figure out how to do.

20 hours ago, Simon said:

  Creator                All Creator sets except:

    Creator 3-in-1        Creator sets with the 3-in-1 logo (one main and two b-models)
    Creator Expert        Large Creator sets with the Expert logo
    Early Creator        Creator sets from 2001 to 2006

Tags are a great way to organize the other elements. Their N to N structure allows to organize along one axis without excluding all others. They can event be good for themes since there are sets that crossover sub-themes and even themes.

Their limit is not in their structure but in the way they are used in the interface. You kinda have to filter on something else before you can filter on them. So if you want everything with the "Fire" tag whether it's town, city, technic, creator, super heroes, etc, you might have problems with the 1000 sets limit.

But that's an interface issue. It's stille the logical structure to use.

 

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2 hours ago, Vokhev said:

But is there a way to see only the sets that are specifically directly under creator while excluding the 3 subcategories?

I will respond later on other suggestions previously posted (I need be more patient and allow others to respond before I react), but this question I can answer immediately. If you look at the Tip & Tricks Sets by Sub Theme, the main theme links, such as Creator, only list the sets within that theme, not the sets within the sub-themes such as 3 in 1. This is the same as the filters in the set search result page. However, if you click on Creator in the Set by Main Theme list, you get everything, so including the sets in the sub themes.

So main theme list is everything, and sub theme list is individual.

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Yes the Tag system needs improvement such as listing the most common ones for the category your searching for. ie give the user a interface to pull tags from if they haven't learned them by heart.

if you have the box/instruction, why search for it by category? use the set number!

I think themes/categories should be for finding similar or even unknown sets/MOCS that fits to your preferences.

So if you like friends you probably like the elves theme 

if you like city you will most likely like the old Town and the creator 3 in 1 houses and perhaps modular buildings

and if you want to reduce number of themes and sub-themes those make most sense to join together.

it also makes it easier to understand and label MOCS into a theme as an author.

 

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Wow! I never knew these lists were in the Tip & Tricks page. That's great. The tags list here also addresses the case I was mentioning about Tags. It's not the most intuitive place for it but the feature is there.

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To be sure, that Tips & Tricks page was created about a year ago, and I probably included a link to it in at least two dozen forum posts... -smile- ...anyway, I am glad it is found useful.

A few general remarks.

Our search engine, when looking at sets and mocs, searches almost everything related to sets and mocs, including number, name, theme, tags, description and even comments. For MOCs the description is usually really detailed, and I am already working on adding more detailed descriptions to our sets. Just completed the descriptions of the Speed Champions, for example.

So I think it is reasonable to presume that anyone who want to search for, let's say Steam Punk or Medieval, would use the search function, and if a MOC designer has added those tags, he/she can be sure that his/her MOC will be found. MOC designers can create their own tags, and as many as they need. Furthermore, about 45% of all our MOCs are alternate builds, and the theme of an alternate build is logically the same as the theme of the original set. If someone makes an alternate build of a Star Wars set, I don't think anyone would expect that alternate build to be in the Friends theme.

The other 55% of our MOCs are originals, and although I can understand it can sometime be difficult to decide which theme to use, I really don't think that we should start adding "invented" themes, that LEGO never used, just to make it easier for the MOC designers. As stated before, Medieval is a perfect tag, but it should NOT be a theme.

If I look at the LEGO website today, I find two Creator related themes: 3-in-1 and Expert. Anyone who has seen those sets on the LEGO website and then comes to Rebrickable would expect we have both 3-in-1 and Expert as sub-themes of Creator. As to "Early Creator", as the description implies this sub-theme is for the first two waves of Creator sets, released in 2001 (green logo box) and 2002/2006 (red logo box). These sets, although they carried the Creator logo, were not 3-in-1, so it makes sense to keep them separated. "Early" is not age related, but references the release year. We might also use for "Early Technic", which could refer to studded technic brick period, and perhaps also for other themes.

I do NOT think we should merge a 40 years old theme like "Universal Building" with the modern Creator theme. Those two are so different, they do not belong together.

What a set is about, or what it depicts, what models it holds, what age or gender it is targeted to, all those categories are tags, not themes. Yes, we need to improve the tagging system, but this thread is about the themes, and we want to simplify those first.

Repeating my initial question: LEGO considers Modular Buildings to be part of the Creator Expert line; we have Modular Buildings as a separate theme. Is that more functional, or not?

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15 minutes ago, Simon said:

LEGO considers Modular Buildings to be part of the Creator Expert line; we have Modular Buildings as a separate theme. Is that more functional, or not?

I think the basic question is: is there a mention of the term Modular anywhere on the box? Or is it used anywhere else like the LEGO site? Because that's where people get their first information from their set, besides the set number itself.

If the box says Creator, then that's where the set belongs (in my opion of course). They possibly can go in a subtheme under Creator, but I think the box and LEGO.com should be leading in this. Not everyone knows alll terminology and lingo. 

The big downside of subthemes is that they go in 1 direction. At the moment a set cn go in multiple themes, like Junior and Jurassic World, it gets tricky what the main and the sub themse are. Tags don't have that issue. Put it in the theme that's mentioned on the box, and add other info in tags.

 

23 minutes ago, Simon said:

Yes, we need to improve the tagging system, but this thread is about the themes, and we want to simplify those first.

I feel that should be a combination. If you are going to move a set, you have to open it, and when you have it open, you can directly add the tags. Saves you from coming back. And when you put it in a more streamlined theme, you need those tags to find the set.

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45 minutes ago, Simon said:

So I think it is reasonable to presume that anyone who want to search for, let's say Steam Punk or Medieval, would use the search function...

Ok, this is a detail but as an avid steampunk creator (in LEGO form or otherwise), I need to point out that steampunk is a single word. Please write it right especially if it's to be used for searching. "Steam punk" feels just as bad as "legos" for me, probably worst.

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32 minutes ago, Vokhev said:

Ok, this is a detail but as an avid steampunk creator (in LEGO form or otherwise), I need to point out that steampunk is a single word. Please write it right especially if it's to be used for searching. "Steam punk" feels just as bad as "legos" for me, probably worst.

This made me smile. As a Brit living in America Legos drives me nuts!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Simon said:

I really don't think that we should start adding "invented" themes, that LEGO never used, just to make it easier for the MOC designers. As stated before, Medieval is a perfect tag, but it should NOT be a theme.

This is exactly how I feel. I think it’s a fundemental difference of the definition of the purpose of having themes. Bio dreamer seems to lean towards the ‘category’ approach similar to other sites (and the historic approach) where someone, at some point, decided what theme a set is (City > Fire for example) to help organize things, but this was before tagging systems have become so prevelant. 

Tagging now serves that purpose (and exceeds its capabilities 100 fold) so using the ‘theme’ system to achieve categorising is just a duplication. 

I feel themes should be an official reflection of what Lego say. They tell us, we put it there. We add tags to help categorise the set.

The deciding of a theme should not be down to interpretation. 

1 hour ago, TobyMac said:

I feel that should be a combination. If you are going to move a set, you have to open it, and when you have it open, you can directly add the tags. Saves you from coming back. And when you put it in a more streamlined theme, you need those tags to find the set.

Any set I’m moving I am adding Tags to reflect the theme I moved it from. The last thing we want to do is to cause sets to get lost when people search the way they always have. 

1 hour ago, Simon said:

Repeating my initial question: LEGO considers Modular Buildings to be part of the Creator Expert line; we have Modular Buildings as a separate theme. Is that more functional, or not?

My two cents: they should be creator expert with modular and building tags. MB is a term that has become synonymous with those sets but I don’t believe it’s ever officially been used by lego (outside set descriptions).

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Don't look to much on the newest sets, you will end up in trouble dealing with all the old which do not have much on the boxes except for the LEGO logo of the period.

but steampunk must be incorrect English you never combine words in English. That's why I always endup writting swenglish, because in swedish you do combine words all the time. 

Maybe you guys should simply forfeit categories and go tags all the way. And work on a good way to integrate that into the sites UI.

 

Personally I do see much differents between these two sets beyond year of release.

https://rebrickable.com/sets/1911-1/basic-set/

https://rebrickable.com/sets/4179-1/large-creator-box/#parts

to me those sets belong together, so what if Lego hadn't settled for a name back then why should it be separated just because of a rebrand. it the same type of building blocks with ideas that are more or less the same sure not exactly the same colors but that's it. 

Same for "3 in 1" that tag can be put on any set that has 3 main models in it. There is plenty of 2 in 1 but also sets with much more then that.

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4 hours ago, biodreamer said:

Personally I do see much differents between these two sets beyond year of release.

https://rebrickable.com/sets/1911-1/basic-set/

https://rebrickable.com/sets/4179-1/large-creator-box/#parts

to me those sets belong together, so what if Lego hadn't settled for a name back then why should it be separated just because of a rebrand. it the same type of building blocks with ideas that are more or less the same sure not exactly the same colors but that's it. 

That's exactly what I was saying. You approach themes with a very different definition. Lego could rename Creator sets next month and everyone would expect us to have a new theme with the correct Lego Theme name (rightly so), it would feel wrong to continue to lump them together or rename all creator themes to the new name. IMO Themes are not about what the type of set is, or how people use that set. It's purely about having our information correct to the information available to us from Lego.

As far as I know we have no intention of re-themeing old sets like the 1911-1. Historic sets like that that have generic Lego themeing will remain in their widely accepted themes.

Tags will achieve what you want when you talk about connecting sets like those you listed.

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That is what a theme is a special look and feel. it's not a name it's a group of similar products/objects that belong together. So what tag do you think should be on this to reflect that. I can't find one in my mind that a child would search for. because to be honest these sets are aimed towards small children and we older just use them to pile up more good bricks for larger projects.

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11 minutes ago, biodreamer said:

and we older just use them to pile up more good bricks for larger projects.

That's just 1 of many forms of AFOLs. Going from 'don't-open-the-box-to-keep-it's-value' to 'let-the-children-play-with-them-until-they-are-worn-down' and everything in between. There are many collectors out there that keep the set without ever mixing them with other sets/parts. I keep all parts sorted on part type to be able to use them for MOCs, but I (or my children) do regularly rebuild sets.

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I rebuild sets once in a while also but this particular genre I simply just don't bother with unless there is a very young kid there that benefits from the play. it's the same with DUPLO, I only build with that in company of young kids.

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I would be inclined to agree that modulars don't deserve their own category. If they get one then why not the seasonal range or the fair ground range. They are all LEGO creator expert ... or are they?

Sticking strictly to what is on the box create some strange issues, particularly with re-released sets. 10249 (Winter Toy Shop) is Creator Expert branded but it's predecessor 10199 (Winter Toy Shop) is not. This is a slightly more extreme version of Biodreamer's example above. 10199 was released during the creator period but is not a creator set so where would people expect to find it.

Similarly a set such as 10230 (Mini Modulars) is neither a creator set nor strictly speaking a modular building so where would it be found.

This leaves another question of which theme unbranded sets such as 10230 or many promotional sets belong to. So perhaps Biodreamer is correct that themes have had their time but should now be retired in favour of tags.

biodreamer, the thing about English is that just as you think you have learnt how something works you find the exceptions. We have a phrase "The exception that proves the rule" which comes from the fact that almost every rule in the English language has exceptions. Although nouns aren't joined in the majority of cases there are plenty of examples where they are, for instance bookcase is two word joined. Steampunk is another such example, although i confess to using Google to confirm that.

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Yeah, but saying "There are exceptional sets that don't fit nicely into a theme, so let's throw away the entire theme structure" is exactly the same as "There are a few exceptions in English, so let's throw away the entire English language". -smile-

(couldn't resist it... LOL)

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2 hours ago, slangivar said:

Sticking strictly to what is on the box create some strange issues, particularly with re-released sets. 10249 (Winter Toy Shop) is Creator Expert branded but it's predecessor 10199 (Winter Toy Shop) is not. This is a slightly more extreme version of Biodreamer's example above. 10199 was released during the creator period but is not a creator set so where would people expect to find it.

This is why tags are important along with whatever Theme system we agree upon. The Original Winter Toy Shop could be left in the current seasonal theme (which will still be needed for the un-labelled seasonal sets we get (mostly the giveaways)) and tagged correctly to link into the rest of the winter village sets. 

We started this process as it became increasingly difficult to determine what theme certain sets belonged to. Creator 3 in 1's are the antithesis of this. The often have cars, planes, animals, creatures, all in one set. This has caused them to be 'abandoned' in the Master Creator theme, making the Creator Sub-themes redundant. Once we opened this can of worms more issues arose (such as SW, City/Town, etc...) If the Theme system is currently unworkable we don't want to keep going down that road. In 5-10 years it will be a mammoth task to rectify it all. 

 

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9 hours ago, Simon said:

Yeah, but saying "There are exceptional sets that don't fit nicely into a theme, so let's throw away the entire theme structure" is exactly the same as "There are a few exceptions in English, so let's throw away the entire English language". -smile-

(couldn't resist it... LOL)

That's good point, I'll draft a letter my MP tomorrow.

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Nah it would be more trying to catalog modern English together with old English, and expect it to be understandable and inter-mixable.

You also have those set deals which go over theme borders those will give you problems independent of what system you develop.

if there is one city and one castle and one space set in a combination package you end up having to have a theme for combination packages or have a set that contain wrong themes in a theme.

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Folks;

we are NOT creating an entirely new theme system.

We've had themes since the very birth of this website, we currently have 15,000 sets and 10,000 MOCs, and 99% of those are exactly in that main-theme where common sense expects them to be. We know this, because the amount of theme related change requests are minimal, and for older sets virtually non-existent. Everybody expects Friends sets to be in the Friends theme, and Star Wars sets in the Star Wars theme.

Now if I build a Star Wars Micro-Fighter, let's say, a Millennium Falcon, with minidoll Stephanie at the helm instead of Chewbacca, one could argue it is a Friends set, on account of Stephanie, but one could also argue it is a Star Wars set, on account of the Millennium Falcon. That would be one of those 1% exceptions. But any category is, by it very nature, a form of abstraction, and when details are lost, exceptions enter. That's why we value the sovereignty of the object and the individual. But the existence of a few exceptions does not mean you can't use categories.

I'm not worried about that Stephanie Falcon set, I don't care in which theme is goes, and if it is really a problem, we have an Other theme for... yes, exceptions!

I care about the hundreds of thousands of people who regularly use this website, and who might want an easy way to see all the Friends sets, or all the Star Wars sets, or even, all the Creator sets. And that is what our themes are for.

I agree with all of you that a theme like Creator does not properly describe the kind of model, but, as mentioned before, that's what our tags are for. And believe me, I have been trying to get those tags better organized for more then a year. But the problem is, that many of our current sub-themes, like Aircraft and Harbor, describe the kind of model, and therefor ought to be tags.

So right now, we are moving sets from Creator > Aircraft back to Creator (or Early Creator for older Creator sets, or 3-in-1 for 3-in-1 sets) and making sure that Aircraft is added as a tag. Once we've done that, we can remove all those tag-like themes, and then, finally, start looking at the tag system and make sure that all sets modelling an aircraft have the Aircraft tag.

Finally, I admit that it might be difficult to recognize the theme from the box alone. For the first half of LEGO history they didn't even have theme logo's. But they did have catelogs, and they grouped together similar sets in their catelogs, and named them a certain way, which is just as good as a theme logo. And there are all kinds of other sources, like books and websites, that all seem to agree that the Creator theme started in 2001, and not in, let's say, 1984. So if the LEGO catalog of 2001 proudly announces the 'new' Creator theme, and at least two other, indenpendant sources agree with that year, I think we should also start Creator in 2001, and leave the Universal Building sets from the eighties where they currently are. And then some Creator sets and some UB sets can have the tag "Basic Set", and hopefully, we're all happy.

Take care,
Simon

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as long as all theme get a tag, so you can search without the category and get the exceptions.

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