biodreamer

Part out sets should manage to flag sets correctly when it comes to spare parts

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Well I found this bobby trap among the sets: https://rebrickable.com/sets/4562-1/creator-box/#parts it has wrecked up my inventory for sure. I have added it because I thought it was a standard brick sets and I keep parting out a lot of bricks. clearly that is not the case. Damn there should be a warning on those or at least some way to notice that you don't have the spares so it doesn't add them when combining the set together. That inventory is completely wacked...

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There was a note about the amount of spare parts to warn you, right?

Seriously, I understand your frustration - I'll add a larger warning. If you have a Pro plan, maybe you can request to have a backup restored?

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I don't know when I added this set to my collection. I just noticed because I found that it claimed I had parts in colors I never owned, and I tracked down the culprit. But I have never got a note about any spare parts when I combine sets. Usually they aren't much of a issue, it's a few small parts but this set is really bad neither inventory is correct. it should be 200 + 200 so no one has gotten 400 pieces? if there is random parts shouldn't the spare parts be more than 200?

it's hard to spot an error when you have a collection my size and sort everything as parts not insets (that would be unmanageable)

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I think the easiest and best way for this is if it combine a set it will only do the complete set and/or the complete spare parts and flag the set according to if it successfully manage to do the spare parts or not. I should be able to trust that no "spare parts" are created in my parts list from thin air.

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Posted (edited)

Can you give us a definition of "spare parts"? I wonder why the plates, pans, jugs, mixer, baking dish and spoons (Kitchen Kit) are no spare parts in this set, although they are not needed to build the set (except 2 forks):

https://rebrickable.com/sets/21302-1/the-big-bang-theory/#parts

In "spare parts" section I can read "These spare parts are not required to build this set."

Edited by Lebostein

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4 hours ago, Lebostein said:

Can you give us a definition of "spare parts"?

That's been changing lately. It used to be every part that is in the box, but not used in the instructions. Like for example your case with the 21302-1. This is now changed to: Every part that is listed in the back of the instructions + sticker sheet. Seen the instructions for the 21302-1 lists all cutlery, all those parts are in the inventory.
103.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Then the red "blind driver" train wheel ( https://rebrickable.com/parts/85558 ) from the set 10254-1 should a normal part too:

https://rebrickable.com/sets/10254-1/winter-holiday-train/#parts

In the instruction on page 76 ( https://www.lego.com/biassets/bi/6216989.pdf ) the not used wheel is listed in the inventory (1 x 6148307).

 

Unbenannt.PNG

Edited by Lebostein

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On 5/11/2019 at 1:08 PM, TobyMac said:

That's been changing lately. It used to be every part that is in the box, but not used in the instructions. Like for example your case with the 21302-1. This is now changed to: Every part that is listed in the back of the instructions + sticker sheet. Seen the instructions for the 21302-1 lists all cutlery, all those parts are in the inventory.
103.jpg

Erm... technically doesn’t this list all those sub parts as 1 part, so if we have all of them in the inventory it would make our part count higher. If we are wanting to match numbers we should probably go back to using the ‘master’ parts.

IMO only parts that are needed to build the set should be included in the inventory. Trying to match the part count on the box is a fools errand as we often list parts very differently to LEGO. Now the exceptions are stickers and tools as they are easily ignored in build calcs, but you can’t ignore a spoon or a wheel that is not used.

If they are in the inventory then when someone exports their missing parts to purchase they will be buying unnecessary parts. 

23 minutes ago, Lebostein said:

Then the red "blind driver" train wheel ( https://rebrickable.com/parts/85558 ) from the set 10254-1 should a normal part too

Unbenannt.PNG

I hate this wheel in this set, lmao. 

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11 minutes ago, jaredhinton said:

If they are in the inventory then when someone exports their missing parts to purchase they will be buying unnecessary parts.

That is the point! If you want to re-build a set, you will buy unused parts if you export the inventory without a critical eye...

11 minutes ago, jaredhinton said:

I hate this wheel in this set, lmao. 

Why? Purchase two of these sets and you can build a nice engine with 6 big 8 small red wheels, like that: https://rebrickable.com/sets/75955-1/hogwarts-express/#parts

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24 minutes ago, jaredhinton said:

IMO only parts that are needed to build the set should be included in the inventory.

I'll gladly reverse the policy 😉

I'm not sure why we changed it, I think because of the change to add stickers to the main inventory, this went over as well?

EDIT: It might also have to do with sets that like the 3in1 that don't have a main model. Those often have parts that are all used in every model, so we chose for the instruction list.

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Posted (edited)

It seems there are pros and cons on botth sides.... but the solution should be consistent

Is there a list of such "composite" parts (like the kitchen kit or the big train wheel kit) from lego instructions? Is this about a few sets or is it often?

Edited by Lebostein

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Just now, Lebostein said:

It seems there are pros and cons on botth sides.... but the solution should be consistent

I've thrown it over to the admin forum to come up with a uniform solution

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, TobyMac said:

Because it's only listed in spares in red

Hm... that thing is a Pro for "unused kit parts in inventory". In this way the part gets a valid color and the MOC builders get the information, in which sets these parts available...  Seems to be a tricky affair. Depending on the motivation, it seems good or bad to have such unique parts in the spare part list.

The only clean solution would be a third category (but I suppose that would cause other complications):
1. main parts (needed to build the set)
2. spare parts (parts to replace missing parts from the main parts, these category only increases the number/amount of the main parts)
3. unused parts (unique parts in the set which are not used, but very interesting for MOC builders)

Edited by Lebostein

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The following is just my personal opinion, I haven't discussed this with my fellow admins yet.

Rebrickable is not just about what you can build, the website is also used for inventory management. In this case, these two goals interfere with each other: lots of sets contain accessory parts, not needed to build the model, but definitely part of the inventory. For inventory management, we need to show all the parts; for building we are only interested in the parts needed to build the model. But we already have a solution for that problem: if a 3-in-1 set contains more parts then needed for the main model, the set inventory should to contain all parts, and an addition sub-set, like those used for the two b-models, can be used to show the part actually needed to build the main model.

As to minifig and minifig accessory parts, the Build function already has an option to ignore those parts in build calculations. That setting, when saved as default, is also used for the Build this Set section in the side-bar, which will then show how many parts were ignored. To simply build the model, without minifigs and minifig accessories, you can set your Build options accordingly. In the few cases where that doesn't work, such as 3-in-1 models with additional parts for one of the B-models, we can add an extra b-model, as mentioned above.

The Spare Parts section of an inventory states "These spare parts are not required to build this set". Note the word "set". It doesn't say model! To build the entire set, as it is depicted in the main image, you need all the parts listed in the Standard Parts section. In all most all cases, as far as I know, these are the parts depicted in the parts overview of the Build Instructions. So the Spare Parts, and this would be my definition, are those parts that LEGO added additionally to a set, which are NOT depicted in the parts overview of the Build Instructions. The only two exceptions are sticker sheets and brick seperators; the first are never shown in the BI overview, but are clearly needed to build the set as depicted in the main image; the latter is sometime included in the BI overview, and sometimes it is not. Both are a non-buildable parts, so they can be ignored by the Build Calculation.

Apart from this, we have some small problems with the part count in the side-bar. Some parts are in the BI overview as assemblies, while we inventory them as sub-parts. In those cases our part count differs from the LEGO pieces count. We may have a similar problem when a set has multiple inventies with different part quantities. On top of that, most super-sets (value packs containing other sets), show a part count of zero. I think we should add a new field to the sets database, called "pieces", which can be manually set to the LEGO pieces count. The field could be initially populated with the parts counts, and it can be shown in the side-bar after the Rebrickable parts count:

Parts     xxx (LEGO xxx)

Take care,
Simon

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Posted (edited)

After hours of thinking I prefer the solution, that unused parts from the official instruction - like from the kitchen kit or the flat train wheel (see examples above) - are should be standard parts. So these parts gets a valid color and can be easiler located by MOC creators. I agree with Simon, set <> model. The inventory of a set should contain all things listed in the instruction. The only disadvantage is: if you want to re-build a model with a Rebrickable inventory list, it can happen that you buy too many parts...

Edit: But what about the B-Models? In the logic above the A-Models get the inventory of the Set (with unused parts) and the B-Models only the parts needed to build? That is also not consistent... Actually you would have to distinguish multiple inventories:

- Inventory of the Set (spare parts and unused parts included)
- Inventory of model A (parts to build the model A only)
- Inventory of model B (parts to build the model B only)
....

For inventory management you can use the inventory of the set and for re-building things you can export and purchase the inventory of a model...

Edited by Lebostein

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7 hours ago, Lebostein said:

 

Is there a list of such "composite" parts (like the kitchen kit or the big train wheel kit) from lego instructions? Is this about a few sets or is it often?

The sub parts should have relationships to their master part, so even if that’s inactive you’ll be able to find them. 

And they are actually quite common. Essentially anything that comes on a sprue is usually considered 1 part by LEGO but we separate them out. Then there’s things like the Batman accessories and these kitchen accessories that come bagged together. 

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I agree that set <> model@Simon has done a great job of outlining the problem space. The train wheel in particular has been one @jaredhinton and I discussed a while ago - it has its own set of weirdness since no official LEGO set seems to have made use of the part in red causing the color error. Why don’t spare parts count towards the Color Error check? In my opinion, a Color Error should never appear  in a set’s inventory - only in MOC inventories and during set submission as a warning. Could special case parts like this just have the error “whitelisted” somewhere so it went away - there can’t be that many known to exist part/color combos that have never been in a single set. If a part truly hasn’t been in a set and a person owns that part so it exists IRL, that is an ideal part for the LEGO-Store-1 and similar part staging “sets” to clear both the Part and Color Errors.

I prefer a single part number since I think that’s easier for the math that is all over the site, a manual “pieces” field would be both a massive undertaking to add and would be just as debated and having both would risk one being used some places and the second in others. So, if there is only one number, the question is what should be included in it. I tend to side with including all parts needed to actually build a model plus stickers and separators being in the main inventory. Anything else in the box goes into the spare parts, including unused assembly parts like a spare spoon from a kitchen set, screwdriver from a tool set or hubcaps from a hubcap set. A complete inventory should have all parts from an assembly pack like the kitchen set included in one section or the other. This works well with the “Build” function. If someone is buying parts to build the model, they just need those in the main inventory. If they are buying to recreate the set, they need both the main inventory and spares. 

I tend to check a set’s part count against that on the box as a means of ensuring an inventory is complete. In that regard, I favor stickers and separators being included in the part count since they are most often the delta between an inventory built strictly from the parts list at the back of the instructions and the box part count. What would be nice is somehow highlighting “assembly” parts that have increased/decreased this number so when there is a delta between the piece count and the box count, I can quickly see why that is - is it an incomplete inventory or a discrepancy between LEGO and Rebrickable counting. Perhaps a corner note like we have for Part Error or Color Error would work for that.

The other two cases that Simon raised are related but distinct problems in my opinion.

Sets with different sized inventories (often caused by a re-release of a set later in production) might be best presented on the side bar as something like “1234 1️⃣ / 1245 2️⃣”. I rarely have seen more than two inventories for a given  set. These numbers should be drawn from the main inventory counts of each inventory like they are now for the first inventory only. We already flag in this area that there are multiple inventories and personal collections track the inventory the user selected. This would just add the part count of each visually and might help folks pick the correct one for their collections.

Value packs having a part count of zero always bothered me. This seems like an easy fix but I’m sure it has code implications. Basically, if a set inventory is comprised of other sets, rather than parts, just add up the part counts of the included sets and display that. I’m sure there is complexity here which would need to be addressed but that’s taking this discussion off-topic so I’ll leave it for another day.  

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2 hours ago, Simon said:

The Spare Parts section of an inventory states "These spare parts are not required to build this set". Note the word "set". It doesn't say model! To build the entire set, as it is depicted in the main image, you need all the parts listed in the Standard Parts section. In all most all cases, as far as I know, these are the parts depicted in the parts overview of the Build Instructions. So the Spare Parts, and this would be my definition, are those parts that LEGO added additionally to a set, which are NOT depicted in the parts overview of the Build Instructions. 

You can make the argument though that the examples above (kitchen set & wheel) are only displayed by LEGO because they have to be. They are part of the element ID for the subparts that are needed. If LEGO produced these sub parts separately and each had their own element IF LEGO either wouldn’t have included them or wouldn’t have depicted them. 

As for 3-in-1 sets, why don’t we just inventory the A-model if it doesn’t utilize all the parts. Maybe that’s opening a can of worms. 

Value-packs are for the most part there for inventory management, not sure it’s really necessary for there to be a part count but my amateur brain says if it’s really wanted I’m sure it would be something that could be easily added. 

Lebo: I hate the wheel cause we talk about it so often and it’s not an easy problem to solve not because of the actual wheel, lol. 

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The main inventory should be without sprues and wheels, have all parts needed to build everything in the instruction book (not necessary at the same time), unless it claim to need other sets such as a motor pack.

For Xin1 we simply allow the community to post "b" models for all models including the first with correct inventory. (no need to argue about which is A), the user that just want the capability to just build one of them can then look at that inventory.

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20 minutes ago, Retrieverfalcon said:

...a corner note like we have for Part Error or Color Error would work for that.

There’s one for subparts (says SUB PART in top left corner) but I think that usage is incomplete so you may not have noticed it. I’ll investigate. 

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My final thought on this (and then I'll leave the decision to the part experts):

It is almost impossible to define what constitutes a "model" within a set. If a minifig is sitting in a car, is it part of the car model? If the fig wears a helmet, is it part of the model? If a Speed Champions Ferrari has two different kinds of rims, are they both part of the model?

The definition of "model" is so subjective that IMO it can NOT be used to seperate regular parts from spare parts.

Which leaves us with the only objective characteristic: is the part referenced in the parts overview of the BI? If so, then it is a regular part, if not, a spare part.

And as bio said, we leave it to our userbase to add for a/b/c-models or any other kinds of sub-sets.

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13 minutes ago, Lebostein said:

Short interjection: Why these Plastic Connection/Stacking Pins for tracks are listed as parts? The instructions say clearly: In the trash with it!

https://rebrickable.com/parts/219
https://rebrickable.com/parts/219a

219.png

Because users wanted the ability to log them, I guess some people just can’t throw  away anything LEGO gives them, lol. I believe they should get listed as spare parts. 

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